What happens when the yolo shatters?
With a name like the Death In Junes, you'd probably expect hella tight emocore in the vein of groups like Early November or ACROSS FIVE APRILS. This assumption would be untrue. When you listen to the Swans are you like, "oh fuck, man. I really wish these songs were acoustic and even more derpy somehow"? Then THIS is your jam. But wait! You'd be extremely shortsighted to write off the Death in Junes as monotonous snoozewave. I think you'll agree with me when I tell you that their endearing, richly nuanced personal brand is worthy of popular and critical acclaim!
GAYS, FASCISTS, OR GOTHIC JUGGALOS?
Innovative neofolk artists like the Death in Junes incorporate a lot of Nazi cosplay motifs into their songs and t-shirt designs. If the idea of racist folkjams immediately repulses you, you should TOTALLY chill out. 'cause they're not racist like Max Resist or Final War. They're racist in a totally provocateur trollface "2 edgy 4 u" way. I mean, the main DiJ guy is homosexual... and how are you supposed to be a NAZI and GAY? That's like petting a cat backwards!
Is DiJ goth? I don't know, dude. Go to Allmusic. In a lot of ways they're sort of like the ICP of the Reagan era. They're both steeped in controversy, spooky costumes, zany iconography, and adhere to endlessly byzantine and oblique spiritual philosophies (For Death in June: Gnosticism, for ICP: Milenko). This is a Venn Diagram with more overlap than one would think.
So needless to say, I am AMPED to see this famous indie band play LIVE at the Mezzanine. My hat goes off to the Mezz bros for having the balls not to kowtow to SF's shadowy hipster ZOG agenda (who undoubtedly have their hooks deep in all local mid-size concert venues), and allowing such a powerful platform to these uncompromising defenders of esoteric wisdom.
Death in June have come sniffing around trying to book a show at DNA several times over the years -- including this tour -- and every time, I've told them to go fuck themselves, for the obvious reasons. Oh, and also because I'm controlled by the international Zionist conspiracy.
I've never understood the appeal of DiJ either.
Ironic Nazis are the worst Nazis.
Wait, no, that's not right.
This might be the first time that I have *ever* agreed with *both* Shatter and JWZ on a topic that was political. :)
The Ironic Cross?
"how are you supposed to be a NAZI and GAY?"
I hope this guy is being at least as “ironic” about being an idiot as Boyd Rice is about being a Nazi.
Boyd stayed at my house once in the early 90s but I didn’t have the nerve to ask him what was up with all that.
It's OK, google and the internet can turn up many interviews with people who did have such nerves, or y'know, check out his own website:
It's like rec.music.industrial threads that never die. What does KMFDM really stand for again?
Kneel before ZOG!
I was a gay nazi hipster ironic DJ after it was cool, which makes me even more cool.
I was into being over things before it was cool.
You refused them because of their costumes? Isn't that kind of shallow?
Who is the real nazi here?
He did mention the international Zionist conspiracy, didn't he?
Is that a serious question, or just a clumsy Godwining?
Is it even possible to Godwin this thread?
I honestly don't know, but dude seems hell bent on trying.
That article is awesome. If only Boyd Rice were parody like Laibach (as ambiguous as they can be, even live, as they don't break character), instead of just another asshole apparently.
Saw a performance once, was not my thing, but I was never into their music anyway. And while I'm actually kind of OK with nazi cosplay (I mean, Hugo Boss did make the uniforms; they were arguably the most stylish military garb of the 20th century), I think Siouxsie Sioux was able to pull it off in a way that the shock tactic mindset of industrial culture never really managed to get right, even after many years of trying (even Das Bunker fell under some inaccurate criticism at one point earlier in their history when they were still a monthly at Que Sera in Long Beach). It's a dead horse that people should stop beating, it never went anywhere interesting. Though these days at least with the 3rd wave of internet feminism, you would think the guy would get more criticism for being a self-outed misogynist (albeit, I can't fault the honesty, in fact, I can't really think of misogynists who are self aware enough to identify as such generally).
But that writing, it made me smirk at least. Yay for humor! Now I just need to figure out what the hell buzzband emocore is, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to know. :)
I have a RAPE shirt that looks a lot like that. And another shirt that says "Hitler". Got them both from customink.com.
I tried to get one with a huge swastika on the front. Black on white circle on red. It looked cool as hell. But they called and said they were giving me a refund. That it's against company policy to print "hate symbols."
I guess I'll just wear my cheesy polyester eagle shirt from walmart instead. Funny how that's almost as good when it comes to appeasing my 2edgy4u ethic.
I'm a holocaust denier. It's a topic that I take pretty seriously, I guess. I mean, compared to what's healthy. It's a difficult topic to broach in a world where even the most analytical, dispassionate and anti-authoritarian white guys on the planet lose their fucking minds as soon as they see a stupid little swastika.
So, being a big Nazi fan and all, I'm sure you wouldn't mind if someone more mainstream stomped your face and then left you in a ditch to die for wearing their symbols. After all, they were all about the majority violently oppressing minorities, and Naziism is not exactly popular in the US, so you're fair game, right?
Or is it just a cheap and lazy way of being an offensive shitweasel, a pose you use because you're desperate to be noticed, don't have any positive attributes, and have settled on negative attention?
No need to answer, by the way. I've seen your other posts here. I already know your game.
hurrurrurr i'm gonna punch you nazis are bad
"Violently oppressing minorities" is, like, every government ever.
"hurrdurr i'm a dumbshit wannabe radical who confuses aggressive attention seeking posturing and transparently fallacious false equivalencies with well thought through political opinions" -- every deathdrone post, ever
Ok you're jewish aren't you.
Feeble. But unintentionally ironic since, had my ancestors not emigrated in the 1800s, circa the 1940s their descendants would've been killing Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. alongside all the other tall, blue-eyed Catholics.
By the way, congrats on not even being clever enough to shift tactics when called out. Carry on doubling down on the offensive shitweasel act, it totally gets more convincing when you do that! (it doesn't)
> I'm a holocaust denier.
If you ever come to Poland or Germany (I happen to live there) you might consider visiting some of the remainig Konzentrationslager sites, e.g. Sachsenhausen or Buchenwald and if you don't wait for too long you might even get the chance to meet witnesses of the time.
Also: not knowing of evidence or insisting on ignoring existing evidence, is a weak argument for denying its existance. That's like denying the existance of Germany based on having never been there and not believing anyone who told you about it. Of course you don't have to blindly trust other people's reports but that would usually not lead you into denying the sheer chance of them being true, no? Why then for the Holocaust, is it so unbelievable?
Do you also deny the killing of the Native Americans by the European settlers?
Jon: "Do you also deny the killing of the Native Americans by the European settlers?"
Jon: "you might consider visiting some of the remainig Konzentrationslager sites, e.g. Sachsenhausen or Buchenwald"
The fact that germany operated racist interment camps is irrelevant. The whole world was operating similar camps.
Jon: "you might even get the chance to meet witnesses of the time."
Being locked in a racist interment camp during WWII means you have about a million fucked up stories to tell. True. Are we talking about the holocaust yet?
Jon: "not knowing of evidence or insisting on ignoring existing evidence, is a weak argument for denying its existance."
Right, uh. There's an invisible purple unicorn standing right in front of you too.
I guess fog of war does frequently obscure history to the point where we have no choice but to believe what the politicians tell us, as gross as that sounds. It's hard to take good pictures and upload them to internet in the middle of an active war zone.
But the goddamn holocaust does NOT suffer from this problem. We had every opportunity to collect all the evidence we wanted, and every incentive to do so.
Germany was a conquered nation. We went through all their papers and interrogated the fuck out of their dudes. Went through the internment camps with a fine tooth comb. We got everything.
It's the internet age. Everything that is true that is even remotely interesting has been described in exquisite detail and is accessible to the entire world, unless there's some taboo against it. All of the most damning evidence has been photographed and scanned in high definition and put on hundreds of webpages devoted to the topic, many of them government funded. The most comprehensive and well-organized page appears as the first result when I google "holocaust."
And yet I spend hours searching and all I can find is jews and politicians talking shit.
That means there's no evidence.
It's a landslide victory for the null hypothesis.
Well, of course, if you decide to ignore all "fucked up" witness accounts... and there exist plenty, by victims as well as Nazis... what kind of evidence would be sufficient?
I don't have the time and energy to try to convince you of whatever you don't want to believe.
During your extensive research you've probable come across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial, but I assume the collected reports therein won't be of interest to you. So again, what do you expect? HD video of the time, signed by Hitler?
With six million corpses, yes, I expect video evidence. I'm not sure you're thinking very hard about what you're saying. Six million bodies is an incredibly expensive and complicated undertaking. It would require lots of long term planning and communication. How much do you think such a thing would cost, inflation adjusted? Can we call it a trillion?
German engineers tasked with producing and disposing of six million corpses? Yes, of course they'd film it.
Jesus fucking christ, what is wrong with you people?
And satan would probably be there too dancing a little jig while they eat the children's hands and feet.
For fuck's sake, the whole thing is just so massively absurd. You do understand that it's utterly standard to make up completely ridiculous things about the other side during war, right? You're not living in a cave or something? What in the fuck?
Jesus christ, so fucking surreal.
Just a single fucking piece of evidence. One scrap of it. For fuck's sake.
Himmler wrote to the camps complaining about the death rate. He wanted the little bitches to make bullets, not starve to death. How do I know this? Because we know fucking everything there is to know.
You fucking stupid shits.
I mean, I don't even give a fuck. I support war. Bomb them all, I don't give a fuck. Just stop being so fucking naive, please. Who gives a fuck anyway? The USA has produced so many bodies since then that it dwarfs the fucking holocaust even if it did happen. How come I don't hear you bitch about that you fucking dumbshit?
Fucking dumb cunts. Is this really all it takes to makes the whole world believe absurdity? Just a handful of tireless idiots babbling the same retarded thing forever and the sheep have no choice but to follow.
Using bad words makes your argument twice as compelling.
Considering that we have plenty of captured German records of the Holocaust, witness statements by people on both sides of the matter, and tons (literally) of physical evidence, your continued insistence that it really didn't happen and there's no evidence of it is beyond absurd.
Only you modern neonazi wankers are so delusional that you've come to believe the Holocaust never happened. Actual nazi officials put on trial for war crimes understood that attempting to deny the obvious was ridiculous; they knew they'd failed at covering up their actions. Instead their defenses were based on blame-shifting of one sort or another.
Some of them frankly discussed how they'd deliberately cooked records to not be explicit -- e.g. Eichmann's testimony concerning the elliptical language used in the official record of the proceedings of the infamous Wannsee Conference. One of the elephants in the room for every would-be denier is that so many senior Nazi officials confirmed everything.
Another problem for you asshats is the forensic evidence:
Belzec extermination camp
Where did these bodies come from, deathdrone? Where did all the missing Jews go? And how does it feel being an apologist for genocide?
Cue incoming deathdrone post in which he denies that any of this qualifies as "a single fucking piece of evidence".
Tim, don't feed the troll. Nothing is accomplished by continuing this conversation but giving him more attention.
Looks like we've reached max indentation. Arlo, I appreciate the sentiment but a few years ago in another context I was convinced that "not feeding the trolls" can be harmful. I won't argue against anybody who'd rather not argue with possible trolls, and will respect the wishes of anybody who doesn't want it done in their blog comments, but I think it is worthwhile to counter extremely toxic ideas. Even when the persons making them are just trolling.
American soldiers torture random ragheads for lols. There was some scandal or something. It was in the news.
Now let's imagine it's 1940 and we're a fly on the wall in the cell of a nazi bigwig on trial. Shrunken heads, child rape, mass murder, etc.
Torture? Well, no. I mean, it's not really torture if the guy is a nazi, right?
You stick a broomstick up someone's asshole and they'll start saying a whole lot of crazy shit.
This is your evidence? Tortured confessions? You're scary.
I read your wikipedia page. It says right at the top that the only evidence they have is the testimony of a single person.
That block quote of yours? Why are you quoting a study done in 1998? How come I can't find the original source when I google the footnote?
Did you say something about evidence? Yes, I'll take that evidence now. Sorry to be such a bother.
So let me get this straight: some American soldiers did bad things during the last decade, THEREFORE Nazis were tortured into confessing crimes about 60 years ago.
Yeah, that makes total sense. If you're wilfully stupid. The world is slightly more complicated than countries being 100% pure evil or good through their entire histories. You can't simply dismiss all the evidence because ABLOOBLOO AMERICA BAD, or WAAAAH ARCHAEOLOGY WAS DONE IN 1998. (seriously? Archaeology gets done when it gets done, jackass.)
Also, your implied conspiracy theory is insane. The modern US government couldn't even keep torture or spying on its own citizens secret. A conspiracy of the magnitude required to fake the Holocaust would've leaked. (Note that the conspiracy would've needed to control the actions of not just the US, but also the UK, the USSR, and several other states.)
Further insanity on your part: reading that wikipedia page and trying to misrepresent it as nothing but the testimony of "one person".
You take all these shallow anti-authoritarian positions, yet here you are making weak and disingenuous excuses for one of the most authoritarian, torture-happy, fascist states known to history. Why don't you toodle on back to Stormfront where you can play this immature "lookit meeee" game in front of an audience which might actually be impressed by such terribly shitty posing?
When the guy from a few offices down is hanging by his neck and you're surrounded by angry dudes with guns asking the same questions day after day, telling the truth isn't your top priority. Broomstick or not. Even the dumbest republican in the world is going to understand that his life depends on how well he points fingers.
Gosh, you sure do have a lot of energy. I can tell I'm not going to win this.
Btw do you have any evidence you could link me to?
Yes, kiddo, of course, you know better.
Do go visit Auschwitz if you ever dare visit Poland (and try not to mention that you're a Holocaust denier, or you might get a free facial structure remodeling).
Congratulations! I almost started to believe you for a moment there, my sarcasm filters must be clogged.
"I'm a holocaust denier."
Have you considered helping out on wikipedia?
Nah. I guess I should probably at least try to do an AMA at some point. The holocaust denial AMA from a few years ago was easily the best reddit thread I've ever seen. I guess it's the reason why I became a denier.
Did you know it's straight up illegal to question the holocaust in like a dozen different first world countries? Pretty shitty. <3 USA.
Maybe 1-2 years ago there was a really detailed webpage on the topic but it got killed. People get their houses burnt down over this shit, it's pretty crazy.
Noam Chomsky is a Khmer Rouge denier, heh. Wikipedia claims like a million dudes died. Chomsky says we're just butthurt over the fact that we dropped like a million bombs on Laos but the commies actually rolled with the punches pretty well, so we just made up some shit to feel better about ourselves, or something. http://chomsky.info/articles/19700604.htm I think.
I kind of assume he's a holocaust denier too, but who knows.
fuk I mislinked. http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19770625.htm I think
can't make sense of chomsky after a 24 hour amphetamine binge sorry =(
Well why stop with saying Chomsky lies about Cambodia, Chomsky said the French should not put holocaust denier Faurrison in prison so you can call him a holocaust sympathizer in that sense.
One thing Chomsky loves to point out is that after four years of accusations of genocide in Cambodia, the US did an about face and allied with Pol Pot, fighting to keep his exiled government's UN seat, arming the "Khmer Rouge" to try to take Cambodia over again from 1979 on.
Also, during the 1975 civil war, there was testimony in the US congress about how there were one million refugees who had fled the war in the countryside for Phnom Penh and there was not much food for them. When FUNK took over in 1975, they sent the refugees back to their farms so as to grow food. It was a disorderly process, but it was not some insane "emptying of the cities" like portrayed in the US media. Foreign western visitors to Phnom Penh in the late 1970s noted it was as bustling as ever. Yet that sending of displaced refugees back to their farms in 1975 is perceived in the US as some crazed ideological "emptying of the cities".
Ahh, now I know the difference:
• folk: «this machine kills fascists»
• neofolk: «Heil Hitler!»
You left the word "bad"out of both your genre descriptions.
Nah. I wouldn't call Woody Guthrie's songs bad.
Sure, but he was neither a hipster nor a Nazi. Bit of a crap father, but still.
There's plenty of good folk, as there's plenty of good neofolk.
I really don't get what jwz is getting at here.
You're an asshole for giving money to Nazis but neither jwz nor the linked article (nor Douglass P.) say that DiJ is Nazist.
I mean DNA Lounge is a venue for 12 year olds so I can understand wanting to keep the more exploratory content out.
I mean, I didn't even intend that as an insult. DNA Lounge is an all ages venue.
Have you looked at the DiJ logo? At all?
I assume that this is your argument that Douglass P. is a Nazi?
It's just that conflation of imagery and belief is like the most embarrassing form of inability to process art so I wanted to make sure.
Feel free to use the symbol they have selected, with full knowledge of it's meaning, as a starting point for your own research.
In case that's too much effort, here is an abstract.
While they may not be literal Nazis, there is definitely indication of enough sympathy to make me uncomfortable, even setting aside their glorification of Nazi symbolism. Which is a total dick move on it's own.
I've read interviews with Douglass P. He does indeed say some nationalistic stuff which makes me roll my eyes. However, I here talking about the inability to delineate between use of imagery and belief in the system they represent.
My point is that it's sloppy to call people Nazi when they aren't, especially e.g. when Douglass P. participated in the Anti-Nazi League.
P.S. "Kikezilla" is a strange Facebook URL for someone arguing about use of offensive symbols.
Sure. In a very narrow way Walter, you're not wrong. The message still comes across.
And yeah, I'm a lot more tolerant of pushing the boundaries of offence in the name of humour or art than most, especially most Jews. Even I feel there are limits, and glorification of Nazi symbols (whatever your beliefs) puts one over the line from clever to asshole pretty quickly.