the simple joy of writing your name in the snow

My Yelp shakedown post got seriously derailed into a thread about sitting versus hovering and pissing all over the women's restroom, and I have a question.

Dear persons with vaginas,

Why in the world have you not yet learned to pee standing up?

I've seen demos of this. My understanding is that with proper technique, and without props, you can do it without pissing all over your pants and without getting your hands or legs wet.

If I found myself in some kind of Freaky Friday body-swap situation, figuring this out would be first on my list. Ok, second on my list. Ok, third on my list. Ok, definitely some time during the first week.

Tags: ,

123 Responses:

  1. heresiarch says:

    no amount of drunkenness can induce me to sit on a public toilet. squatting is not that difficult. the low seatless toilets at DNA actually make it easier. how about installing some handles inside the stalls? that can make all the difference.

    then again, i'm fond of female urinal-style toilets, so i'm probably not representative. though i'm afraid i haven't mastered peeing standing up, as useful as it would be.

    • elusis says:

      Squatting is not that difficult *for you*.

      • heresiarch says:

        in theory, squatting is more common worldwide (and historically) than sitting to pee, but that requires actual in-floor toilets, not the Western sitting kind. i take your point. i also admit that when squatting, i usually have to wipe up after myself, but i'd rather do that than sit. sure, i realize that you pick up far more germs on your hands than from a toilet seat -- but it's easy to wash my hands.

        have you seen actual female urinals? they're designed so you can basically stand over them (obviously they are intended primarily for peeing). do you think that kind of design would work for more people than squatting over sitting toilets?

        • vomitrocity says:

          There is also a difference between "squatting" and what most women who fear toilets do, which is trying to "hover" over the seat.

          • heresiarch says:

            well, squatting is also easier over lower toilets -- or toilets without seats. which is why i actually like the DNA toilets.

            • elusis says:

              To me, "squatting" implies "ass nearly at floor level." Totally useful skill while camping. Not the same as attempting to use the toilets in DNA without touching them.

        • 0ntological says:

          yeah, you know, people who say in-floor toilets are "so gross" seem to be a little confused. These are the same people, however, who think it's weird that Arabs use TP and a bidet/water after relieving ourselves.

          • heresiarch says:

            water is probably a better way to clean yourself than toilet paper. i am totally wishing for a bidet now :D.

            when i was travelling in turkey, i decided to learn how to use the squat toilets properly, since the lines for the western-style ones were always much longer. once i was shown how you actually use them, they seeemed perfectly comfortable and easy to use.

            admittedly, the squat toilets in places like French bars are abominably gross.

        • elusis says:

          I have googled these female urinals you speak of - they look somewhat easier than the "shove butt out, lean forward on thighs, pray for aim/unobstructed shot" method of toilet-hovering.

          • heresiarch says:

            the only ones i've seen in the flesh (...) were at a public beach in Provincetown, on Cape Cod. they looked something like this:

            i like how they're designed so you can basically stand over them, bending your knees enough to get your pants/underthings out of the way. also, they should be low to make uncomfortable hovering unnecessary.

            • elusis says:

              Straddle-able definitely seems easier, but the issue of thigh-size still seems like a concern here.

              Do you turn around and sit for pooping??

              • heresiarch says:

                yeah, i think this design requires having additional sitting-down toilets on hand, like in a men's urinal. but maybe you have a bunch of urinals and one sitting toilet, or something similar.

                • elusis says:

                  Gotcha - I wonder if that design would have beneficial effects on wait times for women's restrooms??

                  • latemodel says:

                    I'm wondering this, too. Are the long waits driven by the fact that, since men's urinals don't get the full-stall treatment, you can pack more heads into the same amount of space? Or, do American women just average longer time per bathroom visit?

                    This is a crucial question. I can't picture having women's urinals without a stall door, because you still get pretty naked and then need to reassemble your clothes.

                  • ladykalessia says:

                    I fully believe that a good 40% of female bathroom time is spent garment wrangling. Bump that up to maybe 75% for our go-go dancing, layered-fishnet-wearing friends.

                  • elusis says:

                    Apparently efficiency studies have concluded it's some combination of the heads-per-square-foot issue, plus the much different degree of clothing management required, plus the little bit of extra time that "walk into stall, stash purse/coat, secure door" takes versus "step up to urinal". And some percentage of women in any public restroom are also managing menstruation and feminine hygiene, which is another little chunk of time even if you are very blasè and skilled at it.

                    Yeah, maybe the urinals wouldn't solve the time issue, and I'm realizing I also can't figure out where the crotch of your pants/underwear/tights/whatever goes when you're doing this 'straddle."

              • latemodel says:

                What wikkit42 said. I have seen many disgusting things in bathrooms in my life, but apparently shitting in a urinal is beyond the pale even for us.

                • elusis says:

                  [eye roll]

                  Yes, I can clearly see where me trying to clarify the usage of an unfamiliar bathroom fixture is exactly the same as choosing to poop in a men's urinal.

                • I've worked in restaurants/bars. found everything from beer bottles to poop in men's urinals.

    • whittles says:

      I just gotta say, I love the idea of the handles inside the stalls. As much as a)it makes me think of hospital/geriatric bathrooms, and b)they'd likely be used to climb the stall and be broken off within a week, I still kind of wish it could happen. It would make such a difference.

  2. vomitrocity says:

    I can't imagine ever wanting to pee standing up.
    I almost bitched about squatters that piss all over the seats as though contact with a surface on their legs would give them aids, but decided I should save it and go read that Yelp post.

  3. nidea says:

    I can pee standing up just fine, as long as I'm outside in the woods, leaning against a tree. And not aiming for anything in particular.

    I think for many women, the labia enclose the urethra to such an extent that the pee gets sidetracked from its destination while standing. Sitting and/or squatting help move the labia away from the center.

    I had a couple dates with a guy who thought women's pee came out of their vaginas. I enlightened him with a diagram.

    • jered says:

      Is this kinda like the problem a man with a PA has? It comes out, it may not even get on you, but it certainly doesn't go where you want it to go?

      Maybe jwz should get rid of the toilets entirely and make it so you can just pee on the floor and that there's a constant flow of water across it. Problems solved.

      What if by some horror you desperately need to, y'know, poop? Is the proper answer "leave the club?"

      • elusis says:

        Is this kinda like the problem a man with a PA has? It comes out, it may not even get on you, but it certainly doesn't go where you want it to go?

        I bet it probably is.

        I know people who say they were raised to never poop anywhere but in the privacy of their own home. I do not understand these people. When my body wants to poop, it politely lets me know, with the understanding that I will shortly find a way to accomodate it.

        • basal_surge says:

          One of my mental ticky boxes for 'basket case' is those people who, for various reasons of upbringing or squeamishness, are incapable of using any sort of non-seat-with-a-hole toilet and/or cleanly taking a dump in the woods.

        • jered says:

          Such people must be terrible at camping.

          • elusis says:

            I have known someone who claimed that when camping, they just did not do #2 until returning to civilization.

            I do not understand this at all.

            • basal_surge says:

              Serious impacted bowel problems there, if it's more than a day or so. Yay, self inflicted constipation.

              • jesus_x says:

                Well, different people have different regularities. Mine used to be every other day between 7 and 9 in the evening. Lick clockwork. Losing a gallbladder has changed that to every day, same time. However I think keeping your sphincter shut for an entire weekend might cause some discomfort. Unless you don't eat...

                • tekniklr says:

                  My body used to never present the need if I was away from home. I could be gone for several days and never feel nature's call, but upon arriving home I'd need to go within a few hours. It wasn't a conscious decision, it just seemed to work out that way,

                  I travel more often now, so my body seems to have overcome this. I just go as soon as possible after it tells me I need to. Sometimes that's several times a day, sometimes it's once every few days. I don't question it too much.

                • pavel_lishin says:

                  That's a very ... interesting slip of the tongue you had there.

        • I bet it probably is.

          No probably about it, that's exactly what it's like. It comes out like a helicopter rotor blade at times!

          I can pee standing up, but it's a mission and involves strange stances to get the legs away from the splash/soak zone.

          Other than that, thumbs up for PAs ;)

        • jwz says:

          When my body wants to poop, it usually gives me a 4-6 hour window of opportunity. I find this convenient.

          • elusis says:

            That does sound convenient. I commend your body on its accomodating policies. Mine is frequently less willing to come to the negotiating table, as my diet apparently makes me what one might call "extremely regular," meaning I am simply not in a position to be overly fussy about the geographic suitability of my response to its demands. But in all fairness, it never gives me trouble of the "refusal to poop" kind.

            And having over over over over-shared beyond my wildest dreams there, I will use an appropriate icon, and nod solemnly at the mysterious wonders of physiology.

    • kanin says:

      Nice description of the labia problem! I concur.

      Count me amongst the crowd that does not fear public toilet seats, but does find DNA Lounge's stainless steel seatless toilets disconcerting. However, it's never kept me from going to DNA.

      About peeing standing up: I've been intrigued, but haven't really tried to learn. I guess it hasn't been important enough. :/

      Ciphergoth: I've heard that it's good to practice in the shower.

    • fo0bar says:

      How does that come up in the first place?

      "So what do you do for a living?"

      "I pee."

      "Like, through your vagina?"

  4. ciphergoth says:

    Where do you imagine yourself practicing? Bear in mind that you have to refill your bladder for each practice run.

  5. cattycritic says:

    I've tried. It's hard. Plus I'm guessing, based on what I've read, that there are enough differences among women that there's no one technique to make sure you don't make a mess (like fat placement, size of labia, etc.). Even when I thought I had the technique down after much practice in the shower, I tried to pee standing up when I had to go at Zeitgeist - arguably the nastiest bathrooms in the whole Bay Area - and got stuff all wet. So I gave up, because there really isn't a need to learn it. And while I know this isn't the only motivator, I've heard men say it is for them - I don't have any manliness to prove by standing up to pee, so, I don't care.

    If there were random toilet alligators that were guaranteed to bite my ass if I sat down to pee then yeah, I'd take more time to learn. Until then I'll wipe the seat & sit my non-princess ass down for a relaxing piss or dump like a civilized person.

    [Edit:] Incidentally, I just sit on the DNA toilets. So it's cold. Wah. Make an ass gasket with toilet paper and get on with it.

    • elusis says:

      Yep. Larger labia, fat thighs, different angles of urethras, all of them make a difference.

      Plus there's the clothing management issue. Dudes whip it out through their fly, problem solved. For a woman to pee standing up, you are ideally wearing pants you pull down your thighs (ensuring they drag on the wet floor) or a skirt with or without one layer of undies underneath. Half the time when I'm dressed to go out? I have undies, tights, garter pants, 2-3 layers of hip skirts and scarves and belts - keeping all of them dry and out of the way is a full-time job *without* needing one hand for labia management.

      Until then I'll wipe the seat & sit my non-princess ass down for a relaxing piss or dump like a civilized person.

      Damn, yes, exactly.

      • violentbloom says:

        I find it hard to control where my pee is going despite trying to from a young age. And that is without clothes involved and in the shower. I find that due to random squishing of the underwear, and length of hair involved aiming is different every time. (and even if you're sitting properly on the toilet, you can accidentally pee on yourself.)

        If I had full skirt on that I could drag out of the way and no underwear and a large target, then sure I could pee standing up. But no one dresses like that, certainly not to go to a club anyway.

        In addition to a short and often tight skirt, I also usually have a pair of panties, pantyhose, pair of fishnets, a garter and thigh highs, and a pair of hotpants over that to hold everything in place and keep the barbarians that hang out in your club from either copping a feel or looking up my skirt. Yes on a fairly regular basis men ROLL on the ground to look up my skirt. I find this completely bizarre.

        But clearly Jamie you've not tried to pee wearing all this. I think it might be challenging even with a penis.

      • kimberley66 says:

        I second all this.

        When I gotta go, I find a place to go!

      • wikkit42 says:

        If by "dudes whip it out through their fly" you mean that we only unzip and don't unbelt and unbutton, that is not true. I'm sure it varies by person, but I've used just the zipper perhaps twice in my life. Same for the unexplainable overlapping slot in underwear.

    • jennaxide says:

      If there were random toilet alligators that were guaranteed to bite my ass if I sat down to pee then yeah, I'd take more time to learn. Until then I'll wipe the seat & sit my non-princess ass down for a relaxing piss or dump like a civilized person.


    • sparklydevil says:

      when i was a kid i was terrified to pee in portapotties because i was convinced there was an alligator monster lurking down there, just waiting to jump up and bite me on the ass.

      and then in my 20s i saw the episode of the xfiles where the flukeworm man lies lurking in the portapotties attacking people and...ugh...let's just say i pee REALLY FAST in portapotties to this day.

    • jesus_x says:

      Until then I'll wipe the seat & sit my non-princess ass down for a relaxing piss or dump like a civilized person.

      Truly you are our generation's Frost or Angelou, the muse that speaks to us in dreams.

  6. 0ntological says:


    It's hard. I can kinda do it, if I don't have to aim.

    httf has an obsession with it, and even she hasn't fully figured it out yet.

    I have decided I am buying a Sheewee. Mostly because I want to say "sheewee" a lot.

  7. basal_surge says:

    Install some non-western style squat toilets?

  8. latemodel says:

    The correct solution is social engineering: if you're going to squat, put the toilet seat up. Maybe you could put up signs informing patrons of this new social norm.

    Oh, wait.

  9. unwoman says:

    I can do it in the shower.

    If I tried it elsewhere, I would need a shower.

  10. Maybe if you plumbed the metal toilets to the hot water line
    more people would sit down and the problem would take care
    of itself?

  11. httf says:

    I really could have used an SMS heads up on this post earlier. I will give it proper attention when I'm back home.

    Edit: oh wow, almost missed an important lj icon opportunity.

  12. ladykalessia says:

    My understanding is that with proper technique, and without props, you can do it without pissing all over your pants and without getting your hands or legs wet.

    There are normal human phenotypic variations that make this difficult or impossible.

  13. httf says:

    Earlier comments definitely capture the difficulty of upright urination. Labia and urethra vary considerably, and both can significantly affect urinal flow control. Practice helps, female urinals help, and ultimately most of us will only ever achieve the outdoorsy level of aim. In my experience, it's exit spray that's really the issue. I can aim reasonably well (straddling the toilet a little helps, as does wearing a skirt), and although I can generally correct any initial aiming issues or clean up after myself, there's really no room for error in urinating on your clothing.

    Anyway, this also made me think of Nicholson Baker's elaborate description of exit spray.

  14. I see that no one's pointed out the very obvious fact that a woman's urethra points down (as in, towards legs and any bunched up clothing) when she is standing up, while a man's points, well, wherever you point your dick.

    Women have no apparatus for aiming the stream, unless... hmm... could I flex my labia a certain way and...?

    Yeah - NO.

    • jesus_x says:

      And now you understand why he asked. Without a healthy selection of equipment ready at hand with which to experiment, he was forced to call in experts.

    • vebelfetzer says:

      I have gathered from various diagrams and readings that one is supposed to hitch one's labia up and aim that way. Shower test runs have yielded no satisfactory results. It's like trying to "aim" a water fountain by sliding a punctured slice of baloney around on the nozzle.

    • httf says:

      Good point! I generally find the lack of stream coherence, the coarse resolution of aiming (sometimes it comes out in a few streams at first!) to be a bigger issue. But prior to any application of strategy, that is a valid issue. Furthermore, this is definitely THE biggest impediment to upright urination with one's pants still on in some way. In a meatspace conversation today we started in on urethral vectors. Men have range, and women have a much smaller range that tends more towards down.

      So you straddle the bowl a bit and tilt your hips to adjust the urethral vector range to overlap more with your target area. And to deal with the clothing issue you wear a skirt or pull your pants way down. Or--and this is my favorite--you take one leg out completely and rotate the pants out of your standing arch, holding them with your non-labia-holding hand, but this doesn't work well with everyone's shoes/pants.

  15. sclatter says:

    Of all the things that I find unpleasant about being a woman, none of them are the things that men think they would find unpleasant about being a woman. Including sitting to pee.

    I think it has one really great side effect actually. A woman does not have to make a conscious decision that she may or may not wish to do more than pee before she enters the restroom. She sits, and events transpire as they will. Personally, the idea of having to plan ahead going poo is very unattractive. But most men I know do exactly that, having a specific poo schedule and woe to anyone who disturbs it!

    • gytterberg says:

      ... I think this is the perfect complement to your "things men think are unpleasant about being a woman aren't."

      You continue to not mind panty hose and the menstrual cycle, I'll continue to not mind having to make a snap decision about auxiliary voiding needs when entering a bathroom to urinate.

    • dmose says:

      To be fair, if a guy doesn't want to make that decision, he could just go sit down. That said, it doesn't seem to me like it's usually any sort of "decision". Mostly, I either need to sit or not, and I just know at the time I enter the bathroom.

    • revglenn says:

      i think i can count on one hand the number of times i've gone into the bathroom and started to take a leak only to realize "oh crap i have to poop". i think most guys, and i suppose up until this point i'd assumed this about girls too, generaly know what's gonna go down before they even make it to the toilet.

      • sclatter says:

        All I know is every guy I've lived with has made a big hairy deal out of going poo. It usually happens at the same time each day and seems to involve mini-vacations on the toilet. Heaven forbid I get off schedule and forget to pee before my husband's half-hour meditation to the porcelain god!

        Girls do not do this. I blame it on the sitting/standing dichotomy. I know that if I need to pee it's a three minute round-trip from my desk. If #2 is involved it takes around 2 additional minutes. NBD. (I do a lot of timed experiments; you learn these things.) If I can't find my husband in lab it's typically that he's walked over to the Econ department to use their bathroom in a leisurely fashion.

        Clearly, when you've done something several times a day for your entire life in a certain way, it doesn't really seem inconvenient to you. I understand that, but it goes both ways.

        • That's not a guy thing, it's a some guys thing. And I've met a few women who are like that too. For whatever reason (and it's not something you can really ask people about unless you're close IMO) some people take 20 minutes to do what nature seems to have intended to take a minute or so.

          The important thing is to identify these people and ensure you're not sat around with your legs crossed waiting for them in a home with only one bathroom.

          • scorpionis says:

            And make sure that said people are kind enough to ask the other residents if they need to use the bathroom before they do.

        • Poo just takes longer for some people than others. This is why some people have a habit of announcing it - in case you need to pee first.

  16. drjon says:

    I will make the point that I was dating a woman in the eighties who could write her name in the snow.

    But I'll also note that much night-club attire does not lend itself to being able to do that.

    • bonboard says:

      > I will make the point that I was dating a woman in the eighties who could write her name in the snow.

      Wow, reading that as "her eighties" instead of "the eighties" made a big difference.

      Do you still keep in touch with Lilli?

      • drjon says:

        Not much. She's too busy racing off virile young 20yo studs, partying all day and raving all night, and living a happier life than I (and prolly you) can even imagine (and I can imagine a whole damned lot). And she looks younger now than she did then, too.

  17. lifelike001 says:

    surely the answer is: people of any gender who leave piss all over toilets are absolutely disgusting.

  18. wikkit42 says:

    I once suggested on a UE forum that female explorers learn to stand up, since toilets in abandoned buildings tend to be even more disgusting than those in bars.

    One of them actually practiced and got it down well, and attributed the success to me having suggested it. It is one of my greatest accomplishments in life.

  19. dasht says:

    One lesson from all of the above is that people like to talk about pee, cause it's kinda sexy, and people like to talk about girls pee cause there are authentic feminist issues there (no, really, like the patriarchal phenom of male-only urinals).

    But, what I really wanted to say/spread as a meme --

    There's various places where the "Men's room" v. "Women's room" signs mean what they teach you in school but there's other places where people just go where they go - de facto the restrooms are *sort of* co-ed. Except - they're still not equal - not the same:

    The thing I've noticed is that even in those co-ed spaces, the "facilities" are distinct in that the "men"'s room is where you go if you don't care about what mess you find when you enter and you're not committing to not leaving a mess -- the "women's" room the opposite: you keep that one nice enough. Boys and girls go into either room but in one they wipe up in consideration of the next person and in the other they decorate the wall, so to speak.

    I do remember the bar I went to once on a busy night. Had "single occupancy" facilities labled M/F etc. It was kinda hot / kinda gross watching a couple come out of the M room, blushing slightly, hand in hand -- young love -- but leaving behind serious pee spray all over the place. But, hey - fair game - they picked the M room.


    • jmtd says:

      "people like to talk about girls pee cause there are authentic feminist issues there (no, really, like the patriarchal phenom of male-only urinals)."


      Girls peeing is a more interesting topic than men peeing because men peeing is pretty much a done deal. I don't see any feminist issues here, authentic or not.

      • heresiarch says:

        men peeing is pretty much a done deal

        so would women's given the right setup/equipment/social norms. hence the gender issues at hand.

    • revglenn says:

      regarding the "authentic feminist issue" of male only urinals, i really truly want to know exactly how a female urinal would work, and why not having them is a feminist issue. i have never, and still do not, understand why some women claim urinals to be somehow a slap in the face to women or a device that claims male superiority.

      it seems pretty clear just from reading these comments that different women have individualized needs. they spray at different angles (though generally downward), have to squat at different levels, some have to sit, some can squat, and some can stand. and we're not even taking into account things like height here. people have been trying to make a female urinal for my whole life and it never works because women all have to pee with their whole bodies and still have minimal control over direction.

      now on the flip side, men can aim and they can aim forward. in fact, forward is far easier for us than down, so urinals make sense for us. we whip it out... pee forward... make less mess, don't have to worry about aiming when drunk or tired. it's a phenomenon... but not a patriarchal one. it's based on basic anatomy. women have too many variables that they can't control because of anatomy. so the toilet is used to standardize the variables. it also is a lower receptacle making it more logical to catch a downward stream. men have far more control but are guided by our anatomy toward a forward motion. thus a wider sideways receptacle makes more logical sense.

      • dasht says:

        "Why not having them is a feminist issue."

        Because of the social and economic dynamics that lead to that condition.

        Here's a slightly silly, less button-pushing example/analogy:

        You can probably imagine a racist backwater town in which there is a plenty large black population relative to white but because of historic conditions the blacks are mostly poor and a substantial subset of the whites, not so much. And in this town is a beauty salon. And in that salon they carry products and have services good for typical white hair but not much help for typical black hair. Now, segregation is all dead and buried, let's say - the non-discrim. laws are on the books and so forth. Yet, there's a non-trivial economic advantage in that town, in job interviews or talks with a loan officer etc. - an advantage to being professionally coiffed.

        The salon came to its present state - ill-served to help black customers - because of historic prejudices and economic repression. In its current state, it perpetuates those injustices.

        Urinals are ubiquitous - with no corresponding customized hardware for "the ladies" - because of historic patterns of male social and economic dominance. We held - and largely, in some areas, hold - the primary purchasing power and that's reflected all the way up into what the industrial design types work on when coming up with new toilet fixtures and what the architects work on when designing a new bathroom. We may tell ourselves that by law and intent we no longer wish to discriminate but the fact remains that our built environment imposes a heavier "pee tax" on the female anatomy than on the male. And we can more or less trace that directly to historic patterns of mysogeny.

        Now, where you pee is just one thing. Just "one wire in the bird cage" as Marilyn Frye puts it. In and of itself, it's just a curiosity. But when similar annoyances/slight oppressions are multimplied across many, many aspects of life they add up to a complete birdcage - a still intact and fully functioning system of gender-based oppression.

        Well, you asked. Sorry to be so boringly straightforward, non-snarky, simple-speaking on this of all blogs where that is generally not the rule so i'll shut up about it but i do hope that explanation helped and thanks for asking a good question.


  20. krick says:

    You have to make a victory "V" with your fingers and pull your "stuff" to the sides and upward to get a better angle and produce better results. Sort of like the way that you can pull on the corner of your eye to correct your vision enough to see without your glasses. Just watch some German piss porn to see how it's done.

  21. Peeing standing up is okay in a skirt and no underwear, but even then, if someone surprises you (it happens) or if you shift the wrong way...the pee hits the leg and it's all over. Once the pee decides upon it's course there's no going back. It's like that experiement on Mr. Wizard where you pour a glass of water along a string into another glass of water...pee clings.

    • That is my experience as well, and I had plenty of time to practice since I grew up in the woods and my hippy parents let me run around naked when I was little. No clothes to deal with, feet placed wide apart, pelvis tilted to aim forward rather than down, and a desire to do anything my older brother could do, but still it would run down my leg sometimes. When the pee slows down at the end, that's when the forward force due to pressure tends to be overcome by the force of adhesion to your skin. As above, pee clings.

      A full squat corrects a lot of these problems - pants are bunched at the knees and out of the way, squat posture puts more pressure on the bladder, and little nearby skin is downward from the urethra. A bit of pee can go on your butt, but it won't go all down your leg. Just don't pee on your shoes, and watch out for leaves because they're splash-inducing.

      I would love to try a real squat-toilet. I think I could get the hang of it pretty quickly, and I'd never have to wipe someone else's piss off the seat.

  22. Women accept that aim is difficult, men continue to delude themselves that they can aim.

  23. I kinda hate you FOREVER for ALL OF THE ABOVE.

  24. violentbloom says:

    apparently there's also the bizarre stadiumpal for men.

  25. shandrew says:

    this entire thread == golden.